swords or daggers by SeiryuuFL

[foulu88]

First let me introduce myself i'm a rather new player by the charactername SeiryuuFL located on Bahamut. I have a lot of experience with games and with rpgs in particular.

I did some calculations to see, if i should use swords or daggers.
I'm posting this here to help other players that are unsure about this and who want to see the numbers and not just plain comments everyone can give. I also hope to get some helpfull feedback.^^

Here's what i'm missing to complete my calculations.
-cube enchantment bonus (increase per number or percentage)
-base p-att of a level 100 sin with joblevel 40
I will be gratefull for every fact that i'm missing here.
So feel free to tell me (in a sofisticated way) if i'm missing something.


So far, swords really have the advantage in p att in every point and level.
But lets take a look at my calculations.

First are the calculations for my curent level and equipment.
I am a level 37 Strider with joblevel 30.
Assassins Weapon Mastery 5: 35 p att
Offensive Trainin 3: 9 p att
base p att (no weapons or passivs): 139 p att
Basic Mystic Jewelk with shard (simplyfied): 40 p att

Result: 223 p att that aren't affected by the weapon itself

I'm using a Tier 2 weapon with Level 7 (i'll assume the full bonus here).
That would mean 97 p att for the dagger and 125 p att for the sword.
So the total so far looks like this.
Dagger: 97+223= 320
Sword: 125+223=348

These are the total so far for one handed fighting, which no proper sin would rely on.
So we have to apply the reduction in damage caused by my Dual Blade Mastery 4.
That would mean 94%/52% for my p att of both hands resulting in:
Dagger: 301/166
Sword: 327/180

Looks good for the sword doesn't it?
But now we have to raise the daggers p att according to the speed difference.
The attackspeed for daggers is 97,5 while the swords are stuck with 88,5 (both hits).
That's a neat difference of 9%.
If we apply this to the daggers p att i will result in this.
Dagger: 328/181

Hurray for the daggers^^

Well if it weren't for p def.
The formular for average damage is
(Average Damage) = 1.05*{(Attack Points) - (Defense Points)/2} for pve and
(Average Damage) = 0.175*{(Attack Points) - (Defense Points)/2)} for pvp.
Now if we apply those, for a defence of lets say 400, before we add the difference in attack speed well get this.

Daggers(pve): 116
Swords(pve): 133

Daggers(pvp): 19
Swords(pvp): 22

So as a final result swords win.



But just relying on my current stats would be short sighted.
So i also calculated everything for a level 100 sin with joblevel 40 (base p att of 300) , tier 5 weapons with level 1, Assassin Weapon Mastery 20, Offensive Training 3, Elite Magic Jewels with shard (+80), Dual Blade Mastery 10 and a 10% belted pet card.
The Dual wield factors here would be 100%/64% and the speed factor 18,5%.
The end results look like this.
Daggers: 963/616
Swords: 888/567

I won't add a result here yet, since i need a good estimate of p att and p def on level 100 for the final result.
But swords will probly win here as well.

Buffs could change this in favor of the dagger. But you can't rely on being buffed all the time so it's pretty useless to think about it.

Swords also give you more skill damage, since it's based on your main hands p att.

So my conclusion from this is that swords are the way to go when talking about efficiency




Thanks to codephoenix for his contribution.

[codefeenix]

No.


I am tired, and i am at work.
I will explain later.

[alastriana]

Try to PvP with daggers...then you'll see how much they suck. Not to mention all your skills will do less damage with daggers.

[codefeenix]

No.

I am tired, and i am at work.
I will explain later.

Ok, i lied. But, over 2 minutes you do a whole 1000 more attack with dirks than swords. (with AI)
However you wont beat anyone in pvp without skills, with limited skills, and moderate to long cooldown time on skills, you need to make the most out of each skill (swords).

Maxxed headbreaker in PVP only adds 20 more damage. with swords.
Maxed Deadly dancing only adds 100 damage total. with swords.




from: http://rappelz.wikia.com/wiki/Damage
PVP forumla is something like
(Average Damage) = 0.175*((Attack Points) - (Defense Points)/2))


I made a spreadsheet on this, ill upload it if someone wants, but its really messy and hard to read

I have NEVER seen a sin r4+ using dirks for anything serous (DP, pvp, farming...)

[foulu88]

Well the formula changes everything.
I'll correct this immediately.
Could someone tell me a good estimation for the p att of a level 100 sin and the p def of a magic user and a tank on level 100?

[rubin150]

I think you are also wrong codephoenix.

As I heard, When AI row lands (3 hits in a row) the speed it hits them (the time between each hit) is the same with swords on daggers cuz that speed is the same cuz it's based on the skill AI animation.
Which means the daggers make only the time between each AI row faster, not AI 3 hits faster.
A lil hard to explain myb, u got me?

IDK how you got it that it's 1000 more dmg...



And about you foulu88..
You did a nice calculation and it's already done before.
1 most important thing you forgot to calculate and mantion, Assassin Impact (AI).

It's true you do more dmg with dirks that with swords at lower lvls cuz AI is still low lvl and you attack more with basic attacks and not with AI often.

Correct me If I'm wrong.

[feardemon3]

mmm well I am proud to say I am a dagger sin yeah i blow at pvp but oh well someday pvp might change to give the little guy a chance(as in low patk weapons).

[foulu88]

@rubin150: Well the less defense the enemy has the better the daggers get.
That way, daggers can be considered better in case of pve i think.
But in pve even black magi on my level get 107 p def just from their equipment. So the daggers will probably lose here already.

As a conclusion i would say that daggers are the better choice up to level 19 i guess.
Starting with level 20, swords are definatly the better way to go.

Update: I had to correct the speed advantage of the daggers. Turned out that the difference is only 9% not 19%.
So daggers get totally busted by losing additional 10% of the average damage

[rubin150]

Yea, thx for correcting yourself now it makes more sense.
But, is that fact about AI row speed any true? It isn't an imformationg from a GM or something like that so I can't be sure.

[squiry]

I think you are also wrong codephoenix.

As I heard, When AI row lands (3 hits in a row) the speed it hits them (the time between each hit) is the same with swords on daggers cuz that speed is the same cuz it's based on the skill AI animation.
Which means the daggers make only the time between each AI row faster, not AI 3 hits faster.
A lil hard to explain myb, u got me?

IDK how you got it that it's 1000 more dmg...



And about you foulu88..
You did a nice calculation and it's already done before.
1 most important thing you forgot to calculate and mantion, Assassin Impact (AI).

It's true you do more dmg with dirks that with swords at lower lvls cuz AI is still low lvl and you attack more with basic attacks and not with AI often.

Correct me If I'm wrong.

Since noone else does it, i guess i have to correct you. AI is dependant on your attack speed. The higher your attack speed is, the faster the animation of AI will be. So basicly it doesn't matter wether you use swords or dirks for AI, since AI will only increase your basic attacks by a certain %.

Whats mainly wrong with the calculations is not AI, but the use of skills. Which will favor swords a lot, since they do use the higher p.att of the swords, but ignore the higher att speed of the daggers.
Another point you left out is, you used weaker weapons. This may sound a bit odd, but higher enchants are in the favor of swords. Each level and each +1 gives swords more attack than it gives to a dagger (and the differense is much bigger than 9%, so that doesn't get compensated by the attack speed of the dagger). ie, if you use a lvl1 +0 weapon, a dagger may be better, but if you use a lvl 10 +20 weapon, you will be much stronger if the weapon is a sword. In your calculations you use low enchanted weapons (so thats in the favor of the dagger as well)

[foulu88]

@squiry: Perhaps you should read everything here again. A bit more carefully this time please.
First the conclusion of my calculations is that swords are indeed better.
I also mentioned that swords are better for skill damage at the end of my initial post.
As for the enchantments, i asked if those are in percentage or in numbers right at the beginning.

Thanks for the answer about AI through.

[rubin150]

I think you are also wrong codephoenix.

As I heard, When AI row lands (3 hits in a row) the speed it hits them (the time between each hit) is the same with swords on daggers cuz that speed is the same cuz it's based on the skill AI animation.
Which means the daggers make only the time between each AI row faster, not AI 3 hits faster.
A lil hard to explain myb, u got me?

IDK how you got it that it's 1000 more dmg...



And about you foulu88..
You did a nice calculation and it's already done before.
1 most important thing you forgot to calculate and mantion, Assassin Impact (AI).

It's true you do more dmg with dirks that with swords at lower lvls cuz AI is still low lvl and you attack more with basic attacks and not with AI often.

Correct me If I'm wrong.

Since noone else does it, i guess i have to correct you. AI is dependant on your attack speed. The higher your attack speed is, the faster the animation of AI will be. So basicly it doesn't matter wether you use swords or dirks for AI, since AI will only increase your basic attacks by a certain %.

Whats mainly wrong with the calculations is not AI, but the use of skills. Which will favor swords a lot, since they do use the higher p.att of the swords, but ignore the higher att speed of the daggers.
Another point you left out is, you used weaker weapons. This may sound a bit odd, but higher enchants are in the favor of swords. Each level and each +1 gives swords more attack than it gives to a dagger (and the differense is much bigger than 9%, so that doesn't get compensated by the attack speed of the dagger). ie, if you use a lvl1 +0 weapon, a dagger may be better, but if you use a lvl 10 +20 weapon, you will be much stronger if the weapon is a sword. In your calculations you use low enchanted weapons (so thats in the favor of the dagger as well)

I think you are right.
Don't wanna sound leaden but, how do you know it's true that the faster atk spd you have the faster AI animation goes?
I mean, you might have heard it like a rumor as same as I heard that the animation stays the same..

Is there anywhere we can read and be sure the info is completely true?..

[squiry]

@squiry: Perhaps you should read everything here again. A bit more carefully this time please.
First the conclusion of my calculations is that swords are indeed better.
I also mentioned that swords are better for skill damage at the end of my initial post.
As for the enchantments, i asked if those are in percentage or in numbers right at the beginning.

Thanks for the answer about AI through.

I know your results ended up that swords are better, and im not saying they are wrong. I just say you are leaving things out (no matter that it doesn't change the conclusion, it is quite important to not leave anything out at all in calculations)

As for numbers, you can find a lot of details on p.att on weapons etc. on some fansites like alizarinhq. (that site is outdated, but the information they got about equipments is correct.)

Please don't always catch critizm negative. It wasn't ment as a flame, but just to fill up missing holes.

I think you are right.
Don't wanna sound leaden but, how do you know it's true that the faster atk spd you have the faster AI animation goes?
I mean, you might have heard it like a rumor as same as I heard that the animation stays the same..

Is there anywhere we can read and be sure the info is completely true?..

Im happy that at least several people want a source of their information ^^

I never believe and spread rumors before i have seen with my own eyes or mind they are true or not... which is also the case for AI

Anyway, in this link is described why AI is attack speed dependant, and how you can see it yourself (on the first up to the third page)

http://rappelz-forum.gpotato.com/viewtopic.php?f=434&t=946300&hilit=dependant&sid=9eaa8db76eb615c1c9df1bc6afb8a0d6

p.s. im leaving on vacation tomorrow again, so i won't respond (often) anymore

[foulu88]

@squiry: I'm sorry if it sounded like i'm enraged. That wasn't intended.
I'm greatfull for your comment about AI and that you cleared up how cube enchantments work out.
I don't mind you're criticism me, i asked for comments after all.
All i'm asked for was that you read the threat again to see that, what you said was missing, as actually there already or admitted to be left out, because of lack of information.
As for fansites, i couldn't find a chart for cube enchantments on alizarinhq and other fansites i visited.
The charts for blacksmith enchantments are there and i used them in the threat.

PS: Have fun in your vacation. I'll wait for your reply.